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   DealBook: A.I. indicator
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   Plus, the General Catalyst C.E.O. Hemant Taneja
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             September 20, 2025
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          Good morning. Andrew here. When you look at the U.S. economy, it appears to be strong — in large part because one industry is spending so much money that it seems to be propping up much of the rest. The investment in artificial intelligence data centers has a cascading impact on everything from energy to real estate. The question — the one I think about more than any other — is whether this is a gold rush or a sugar rush. We asked Ian Frisch to do a deep dive for this morning’s edition on this very question.
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          Also, venture capital firms may be on the verge of a transformation. DealBook’s Sarah Kessler spoke to Hemant Taneja, chief executive of General Catalyst, for our Saturday Q. and A. And take a look at the surprising — or maybe not-so-surprising — results of a new poll of C.E.O.s. (Was this newsletter forwarded to you?
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             An aerial view shows construction underway on a Project Stargate AI infrastructure site, a collaboration between three large tech companies – OpenAI, SoftBank, and Oracle — in Abilene, Texas.
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            <span style="margin:0;font:11px/11px georgia,serif;color:#888;letter-spacing:.01em">
             Daniel Cole/Reuters
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         <span>
          The canary in the data center
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             <p style="font:13px/18px arial,sans-serif;letter-spacing:.2px;color:#000;font:600 13px/18px arial,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0">
              By Ian Frisch
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          Trillions of dollars are flowing into the data centers needed to power artificial intelligence, and Wall Street is paying close attention.
         </span>
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          Nvidia’s stock fell 3 percent overnight after it revealed last month that, despite strong overall revenue, its quarterly equipment sales to
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          data centers
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         <span>
          had missed analyst expectations.
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          Conversely,
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         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Oracle
         </a>
         <span>
          saw an 43 percent stock pop last week — its largest one-day jump in over 30 years — after announcing that OpenAI had agreed to buy $300 billion in computing power from the company.
         </span>
        </p>
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          “How does the digital economy exist?” said John Medina, a senior vice president at Moody’s, who specializes in infrastructure. “It exists on data centers.”
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          U.S. data center demand, driven largely by A.I., could triple by 2030, according to
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          McKinsey
         </a>
         <span>
          , which would require data centers to make nearly $7 trillion in investment to keep up. OpenAI, SoftBank and Oracle recently announced a pact to invest $500 billion in A.I. infrastructure through 2029.
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Meta
         </a>
         <span>
          and
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Alphabet
         </a>
         <span>
          are also investing billions. Merely saying “please” and “thank you” to a chatbot eats up tens of millions of dollars in processing power, according to
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          the OpenAI’s chief executive, Sam Altman
         </a>
         <span>
          .
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          As
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          skepticism
         </a>
         <span>
          rises about the financial return of A.I.,some investors are looking at the performance of data centers as an early indicator of emerging headwinds.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          “I start to see the beginning of some kind of bubble,” Joe Tsai, chairman of the e-commerce giant Alibaba Group, said in March of the data center market.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          The spending frenzy comes with a big default risk.
         </span>
         <span>
          According to
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Moody’s
         </a>
         <span>
          , structured finance has become a popular way to pay for new data center projects, with more than $9 billion of issuance in the commercial mortgage-backed security and asset-backed security markets during the first four months of 2025. Meta, for example, tapped the bond manager
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Pimco
         </a>
         <span>
          to issue $26 billion in bonds to finance its data center expansion plans.
         </span>
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            </span>
           </td>
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           <td style="padding-bottom:15px;border-bottom:1px solid #dcdcdc">
           </td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
           <td height="20">
           </td>
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         </tbody>
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        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          But as more debt enters these transactions, analysts and lenders are putting more emphasis on lease terms for third-party developers.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          “Does the debt get paid off in that lease term, or does the tenant’s lease need to be renewed?” Medina of Moody’s said. “What we’re seeing often is there is lease renewal risk, because who knows what the markets or what the world will even be like from a technology perspective at that time.”
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Still, he added, well-financed megacap technology companies like Meta or Alphabet have enough padding in their cash flow to offset spending in their own data centers — as long as A.I. becomes profitable.
         </span>
        </p>
        <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:100%">
         <tbody>
          <tr>
           <td style="text-align:center">
            <img alt="An aerial view of a large flat set of buildings on a grassy campus." class="css-xsf469" height="375" src="https://inboxflows.com/_/image/https%253A%252F%252Fstatic01.nyt.com%252Fimages%252F2025%252F09%252F20%252Fmultimedia%252FDB-DATACENTER-02-vjgt%252FDB-DATACENTER-02-vjgt-jumbo.jpg/?inbox_flows_img_sig=eyJwYXRoIjoiaHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZzdGF0aWMwMS5ueSIsInRpbWUiOjE3NTgzNjk3NTQuMjAzOTE5Nn0:1uzwIU:tkzpEJrM6OPdm2buO7M17-G0ymPckPmS3buU1Xh_IaQ" style="display:inline-block;width:83%;max-width:500px;height:auto;padding-top:10px;padding-bottom:0;line-height:0" width="500"/>
           </td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
           <td style="text-align:center;width:100%;padding-top:6px;padding-bottom:20px;line-height:12px">
            <span class="css-1wuwhda" style="width:83%;max-width:500px;display:inline-block;text-align:left">
             <span class="css-1hnedf7" style="color:#666;font:normal 12px georgia,serif">
              A Meta data center near Covington, Ga. in May 2025.
             </span>
             <span style="margin:0;font:11px/11px georgia,serif;color:#888;letter-spacing:.01em;padding-left:5px">
              Dustin Chambers for The New York Times
             </span>
            </span>
           </td>
          </tr>
         </tbody>
        </table>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Even if A.I. proliferates, demand for processing power may not.
         </span>
         <span>
          The Chinese technology company DeepSeek has demonstrated that A.I. models can produce reliable outputs with less computing power. As A.I. companies make their models more efficient, data center demand could drop, making it much harder to turn investments in A.I. infrastructure into profit.
         </span>
        </p>
        <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:100%">
         <tbody>
          <tr>
           <td height="10">
           </td>
          </tr>
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           <td style="border-top:1px solid #dcdcdc;padding-top:15px">
           </td>
          </tr>
          <tr aria-hidden="true">
           <td>
            <div style="width:100%;text-align:center;line-height:0">
             <img alt="Ad" border="0" src="https://inboxflows.com/_/image/https%253A%252F%252Fliveintent.newyorktimesinfo.com%252Fimp%253Fs%253D1053700%2526li%253DDK%2526m%253Ddfbfebeec3e396a6cb1a8b032a80246c%2526p%253DDK_20250920%2526stpe%253Ddefault/?inbox_flows_img_sig=eyJwYXRoIjoiaHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZsaXZlaW50ZW50LiIsInRpbWUiOjE3NTgzNjk3NTQuMjA0MDE1N30:1uzwIU:TwQRsfK2_9lSgxT_vRf5028DkP58X6Au8rI06ifvGgw" style="max-width:96px;margin-bottom:7px"/>
            </div>
            <span style="text-align:center">
             <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="margin:0 auto">
              <tbody>
               <tr>
                <td style="line-height:0;font-size:0">
                 <a class="css-sdwaa1" rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline" tabindex="-1" target="_blank">
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                <td style="line-height:0;font-size:0">
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           </td>
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           </td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
           <td height="20">
           </td>
          </tr>
         </tbody>
        </table>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          After Microsoft backed out of a
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          $1 billion
         </a>
         <span>
          data center investment in March, UBS wrote that the company, which has lease obligations of roughly $175 billion, most likely overcommitted.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Some worry costs will always be too high for profits.
         </span>
         <span>
          In
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          a blog post
         </a>
         <span>
          on his company’s website, Harris Kupperman, a self-described boomer investor and the founder of the hedge fund Praetorian Capital, laid out his bearish case on A.I. infrastructure. Because the building needs upkeep and the chips and other technology will continually evolve, he argued that data centers will depreciate faster than they can generate revenue.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          “Even worse, since losing the A.I. race is potentially existential, all future cash flow, for years into the future, may also have to be funneled into data centers with fabulously negative returns on capital,” he added. “However, lighting hundreds of billions on fire may seem preferable than losing out to a competitor, despite not even knowing what the prize ultimately is.”
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          It’s not just Silicon Valley with skin in the game.
         </span>
         <span>
          State budgets are being upended by tax incentives given to developers of A.I. data centers. According to Good Jobs First, a nonprofit that promotes corporate and government accountability in economic development, at least 10 states so far have lost more than
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          $100 million per year in tax revenue
         </a>
         <span>
          to data centers. But the true monetary impact may never be truly known: Over one-third of states that offer tax incentives for data centers do not disclose aggregate revenue loss.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Local governments are also making huge investments in energy infrastructure to support the surge of data centers. Phoenix, for example, is expected to grow its data center power capacity by
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          over 500 percent
         </a>
         <span>
          in the coming years — enough power to support over 4.3 million households. Virginia, which has more than 50 new data centers in the works, has contracted the state’s largest utility company, Dominion, to build
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          40 gigawatts of additional capacity
         </a>
         <span>
          to meet demand — triple the size of the current grid.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          The stakes extend beyond finance
         </span>
         <span>
          . The big bump in data center activity
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          has been linked
         </a>
         <span>
          to distorted residential power readings across the country. And according to the
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          International Energy Agency
         </a>
         <span>
          , a 100-megawatt data center, which uses water to cool servers, consumes roughly two million liters of water per day, equivalent to 6,500 households. This puts strain on water supply for nearby residential communities, a majority of which, according to
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Bloomberg News
         </a>
         <span>
          , are already facing high levels of water stress.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          “I think we’re in that era right now with A.I. models where it’s just who can make the bigger and better one,” said
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Vijay Gadepally
         </a>
         <span>
          , a senior scientist at the Lincoln Laboratory Supercomputing Center at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “But we haven’t actually stopped to think about, Well, OK, is this actually worth it?”
         </span>
        </p>
        <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:100%">
         <tbody>
          <tr>
           <td height="30">
           </td>
          </tr>
          <td style="padding:0;font-size:0;border-top:8px solid #000">
           <h3 style="color:#000;font:700 17px/25px arial,sans-serif;margin:5px 0 30px 0;letter-spacing:.2px">
            <span>
             IN CASE YOU MISSED IT
            </span>
           </h3>
          </td>
         </tbody>
        </table>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          The Fed voted to lower its benchmark lending rate.
         </span>
         <span>
          The S&amp;P 500 rallied to a new high after the central bank made its
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          first interest-rate cut this year
         </a>
         <span>
          , and signaled more were coming. Elsewhere, the Trump administration asked the Supreme Court for clearance to fire one of the central bank’s governors,
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Lisa Cook
         </a>
         <span>
          , whom the White House has accused of mortgage fraud. That decision is seen as a major test of presidential powers over the Fed’s independence.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Disney took Jimmy Kimmel off the air.
         </span>
         <span>
          The media giant suspended the late-night host’s show “
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          indefinitely
         </a>
         <span>
          ” after Brendan Carr, the chair of the F.C.C., threatened ABC and its affiliates over comments Kimmel had made about the suspect in the Charlie Kirk shooting and the right-wing reaction.
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Nexstar and Sinclair
         </a>
         <span>
          , which own dozens of ABC affiliates, quickly said they wouldn’t air Kimmel’s show. The administration’s threat drew criticism as an attack on free speech, and
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Trump
         </a>
         <span>
          and
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Carr
         </a>
         <span>
          suggested they may put pressure on
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          other programs
         </a>
         <span>
          ; Disney was condemned by Hollywood unions and prominent creatives.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Trump suggested the U.S. and China TikTok deal would move forward.
         </span>
         <span>
          After a call with China’s top leader, Xi Jinping, the U.S. president
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          suggested on Truth Social
         </a>
         <span>
          that they’d reached an agreement to separate TikTok from its Chinese owner, ByteDance. He did not provide details on the agreement. TikTok faces a ban in America unless its business there is sold to a U.S. investor.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Other big deals:
         </span>
         <span>
          Microsoft, Nvidia and Google were among the companies that
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          announced deals for tech projects
         </a>
         <span>
          in the U.K. ahead of Trump’s state visit there; The F.T.C. and several states
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          sued Ticketmaster
         </a>
         <span>
          and its parent company over claims of illegal resale tactics; and Trump said companies should report results
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          just twice a year
         </a>
         <span>
          .
         </span>
        </p>
        <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:100%">
         <tbody>
          <tr>
           <td height="10">
           </td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
           <td height="8" style="background-color:#000;font-size:0;line-height:0" width="100%">
           </td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
           <td height="20">
           </td>
          </tr>
         </tbody>
        </table>
        <h2 class="css-10nzuqq" style="color:#000;font:700 25px/32px arial,sans-serif;margin:0 0 10px">
         <span>
          How much can venture capital do?
         </span>
        </h2>
        <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:100%">
         <tbody>
          <tr>
           <td style="text-align:center">
            <img alt="" class="css-xsf469" height="333" src="https://inboxflows.com/_/image/https%253A%252F%252Fstatic01.nyt.com%252Fimages%252F2025%252F09%252F20%252Fbusiness%252F20DB-general-catalyst%252F20DB-general-catalyst-jumbo.jpg/?inbox_flows_img_sig=eyJwYXRoIjoiaHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZzdGF0aWMwMS5ueSIsInRpbWUiOjE3NTgzNjk3NTQuMjA0MzUxN30:1uzwIU:KK2eTa9xQUEnUyJYJzgHLPqynOByA86RdOW7SyhNjSQ" style="display:inline-block;width:83%;max-width:500px;height:auto;padding-top:10px;padding-bottom:0;line-height:0" width="500"/>
           </td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
           <td style="text-align:center;width:100%;padding-top:6px;padding-bottom:20px;line-height:12px">
            <span class="css-1wuwhda" style="width:83%;max-width:500px;display:inline-block;text-align:left">
             <span class="css-1hnedf7" style="color:#666;font:normal 12px georgia,serif">
              Hemant Taneja, the C.E.O. of General Catalyst, argues in a new book that the right kind of capitalism can solve society’s biggest problems.
             </span>
             <span style="margin:0;font:11px/11px georgia,serif;color:#888;letter-spacing:.01em;padding-left:5px">
              General Catalyst
             </span>
            </span>
           </td>
          </tr>
         </tbody>
        </table>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          General Catalyst, one of the largest venture capital investors in the world, has lately been twisting the typical blueprint for venture capital firms. It has a wealth management business, built up stakes in
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          ho-hum services businesses
         </a>
         <span>
          like accounting and property management, and perhaps most perplexing to industry traditionalists,
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          acquired a hospital
         </a>
         <span>
          in Ohio.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Hemant Taneja, the firm’s chief, says it’s all part of his strategy for building long-term businesses, which he calls “inclusive capitalism” and outlines in his
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          latest book
         </a>
         <span>
          , which will be released next week. DealBook’s Sarah Kessler talked with Taneja about the firm’s philosophy. The interview has been edited and condensed.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          DealBook reported this week that Robinhood has plans for
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline;font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          a new fund
         </a>
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          that sells access to privately held companies to retail investors. What do you think of
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline;font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          the trend
         </a>
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          of expanding who can invest in private companies?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          I really like it. We’re starting to create structures that allow for a lot more people to participate in the value creation of technology. I think we have to bring these opportunities in at the right part of the risk curve.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          How?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Give retail investors access to companies that have already established themselves as category leaders and have a certain scale. As opposed to really, really high risk technologies or really, really high-risk stages of companies.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Some have seen steps like getting into wealth management and strategic advisory as a sign you’re preparing for an I.P.O. Are you considering taking the company public?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          We are not. Every single thing we do is based on serving the founders that we back.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          In your book, you lay out a case for what you call “inclusive capitalism.” How is that different from E.S.G. or impact investing?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          This is very much the mind-set of inputs. How do you build with intentionality? How do you build with radical collaboration?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          E.S.G. is output-oriented — a scorecard you can orient your business toward. Famously, at one point, Tesla was not considered an E.S.G. company. But it was responsible for moving an entire industry of automotive toward electrification.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          When you focus on profitability, capitalism allows you to scale those businesses to be global. Impact investing is a euphemism for ideas that aren’t very profitable. It has nothing to do with ideas that are very impactful, in my opinion.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          You write that capitalism is a privilege that society affords, and that if a business is working well for society, it has the biggest addressable market. But aren’t there obvious examples of businesses that are doing demonstrable harm but still very profitable?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Well I think the movie is not over yet.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          If you think about a lot of the issues that emerged with social media, which led to polarization all over the world — look at the unrest. All the productivity we created with technology was captured by a handful of technology companies. It was not actually passed down to the world.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          And so there is this underlying frustration with technology and globalization. At some point, that doesn’t, in my opinion, end well for businesses.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          I covered a lot of those companies when they were start-ups, and they believed they were on track to make a positive societal impact. How do you even know?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Choices matter a lot. Advertising is a misaligned business model: It’s the advertisers who are paying, and consumers are getting the product. You’re trying to drive attention, because that’s how you get more advertisers, and that’s what led to a lot of the social media issues.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          It’s about, are you really playing for the long term, and therefore, do you not over-optimize profit in the short term and make those long term choices?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          So if it were your company, would you want to have less growth in favor of a longer-term horizon that accounts for societal impact?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
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          I would think carefully about how to avoid that misalignment.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          You know, if a clerk in a company was getting paid $80,000 a year, and you now have an A.I. clerk from some start-up that’s going to do the same job for $40,000 a year, it’s a very profitable service and it’s saving the business a lot of money. But that person is out of work.
         </span>
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        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          And if you extrapolate that to all the white collar jobs, that’s the risk that’s in front of us. So are we going to build these companies that become entirely A.I. enabled and there are no more jobs?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          I would guess a lot of people who focus on investments would say, yes, you should have as few people working for your company as possible. That’s great. And if it creates this societal problem, that is the tragedy of the commons and it’s not our job to address that.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          I think tragedies of the commons lead to revolutions when it’s a big tragedy. And I think we’re talking about a pretty large impact A.I. is going to have. We have a choice of how we bring this technology to bear.
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