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   DealBook: My interviews with Netanyahu and Lai Ching-te
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             December 10, 2025
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          Good afternoon. Andrew here.
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         <span>
          Last week, I sat down with two world leaders, Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, and Lai Ching-te, the president of Taiwan. Below, we’ve got a rundown of some highlights from those discussions.
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          Over the coming days, we’ll be sending you emails with excerpts and takeaways from all of the interviews at this year’s DealBook Summit. You can also watch all of them on
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          .
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        <h2 class="css-10nzuqq" style="color:#000;font:700 25px/32px arial,sans-serif;margin:0 0 10px">
         <span>
          What Benjamin Netanyahu said at the DealBook Summit
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        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s longest-serving prime minister, has led the country through the Oct. 7 massacre by Hamas, waged war in Gaza, attacked Iran, battled Hezbollah in Lebanon and militants in Syria and forged a partnership with the new U.S. administration — all while fighting corruption charges and intense criticism internally and globally.
         </span>
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        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          In a live virtual interview at the DealBook Summit last week, Netanyahu discussed his ongoing corruption trial, whether peace is possible in his region and his intention to stay in office.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          The below highlight from the conversation has been condensed and edited for clarity.
         </span>
        </p>
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         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Andrew:
         </span>
         <span>
          Just over two weeks ago, we had a breakthrough moment when the U.N. Security Council voted to adopt President Trump’s peace plan for Gaza. But Hamas, of course, has now rejected that plan. And even today there are accusations about the cease-fire being broken. And I think we all want to understand if there really is an opportunity for sustained peace, and if so, how?
         </span>
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        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Netanyahu:
         </span>
         <span>
          I think there is. I think that the battering that the Iran axis received opens up many possibilities. But there’s still some mopping up that has to be done. I think the most important thing about Gaza was that the first phase of the plan was achieved, and that was what people didn’t believe would happen.
         </span>
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         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Watch:
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Netanyahu Says Pardon in His Corruption Case Would Be ‘Right’ for Israel
         </a>
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         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Listen:
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Israel’s Prime Minister Says He’s Not Yet Done With His Mission
         </a>
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        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          I believed — President Trump believed — and with a combined effort, military and diplomatic, we were able to bring Hamas to give us all our hostages. We still have two left. But the live hostages are out.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          And the reason we got it is because we went into the last stronghold of Hamas in Gaza City. They didn’t believe we’d do it. And at the same time, President Trump put together a very strong Islamic and Arab coalition. And the combination of those two pressures brought Hamas to its senses.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Now the second phase is to disarm Hamas and demilitarize Gaza. I think there’s a third phase, which is to de-radicalize the Gazan population from 60 years of incredible incitement, incredible brainwashing, which really has to be changed. But the first phase is you’ve got to get rid of Hamas.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Andrew:
         </span>
         <span>
          You spoke to President Trump this week about what’s taking place in Syria, but I also understand that there was a discussion about getting his support, or more support from him, for a pardon. Can you tell us about that conversation?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Netanyahu:
         </span>
         <span>
          President Trump spoke time and again about the need to end what he calls a witch hunt, and it is. It’s been going on for 10 years.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Six years of bogus investigations and four years of an endless trial. And of course if they had something, something would have occurred. So I was being put on trial — are you sitting down? — for bribery.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          What was the bribery? Not envelopes of cash, not any material remuneration, but supposedly positive coverage on a second-rate internet site. Well, it turned out there was negative coverage. So two years ago, the judges call in the prosecution and they say, drop the bribery charge.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          There’s nothing there. Well, they wouldn’t agree. So they kept on going because they don’t want justice, they want me out of office.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Andrew:
         </span>
         <span>
          And you were at that trial today.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Netanyahu:
         </span>
         <span>
          Yeah, I’m supposed to spend three times a week, eight hours a week in that trial. And you know, I’ve got a few other things to do.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Andrew:
         </span>
         <span>
          President Trump recently hosted M.B.S. [Mohammed bin Salman, the Saudi Crown Prince] at the White House, who said he wanted to be part of the Abraham Accords, but that there needed to be a path to a two-state solution. How do you square that with your view, where you have said there would not be a Palestinian state?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Netanyahu:
         </span>
         <span>
          Well, there was a Palestinian state. It’s called Gaza. It was a de facto state, and we didn’t get peace. What we got was the most horrific massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          And so people say, look, there has to be a solution with the Palestinians, but it’s not one in which they don’t recognize the Jewish state.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          We will have to find a path for peace, and I think it begins in Gaza by removing Hamas and offering it a different future.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          But you ask how do we square that? Well, you know, people didn’t believe that we’d get peace with four Arab states in the Abraham Accords. Everybody said it’s not going to happen, but it did.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          I think there’s a very strong interest to advance that peace. It’s got to be peace based on security. Israel will not sacrifice its security.
         </span>
        </p>
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             MORE FROM THE INTERVIEW
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            <img alt="" class="css-xsf469" height="333" src="https://inboxflows.com/_/image/https%253A%252F%252Fstatic01.nyt.com%252Fimages%252F2025%252F12%252F10%252Fmultimedia%252F10DB-Netanyahu-2-kftw%252F10DB-Netanyahu-2-kftw-jumbo.jpg/?inbox_flows_img_sig=eyJwYXRoIjoiaHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZzdGF0aWMwMS5ueSIsInRpbWUiOjE3NjUzOTY4MzguODY4NjkyNn0:1vTQMY:9iVkJpirqt9KERbY3sYho636wK5bSlwdSFEDfnLt37w" style="display:inline-block;width:83%;max-width:500px;height:auto;padding-top:10px;padding-bottom:0;line-height:0" width="500"/>
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           <td style="text-align:center;width:100%;padding-top:3px;padding-bottom:20px;line-height:12px">
            <span class="css-1wuwhda" style="width:83%;max-width:500px;display:inline-block;text-align:right">
             <span style="margin:0;font:11px/11px georgia,serif;color:#888;letter-spacing:.01em;padding-left:0">
              Dave Sanders for The New York Times
             </span>
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         </tbody>
        </table>
        <div style="margin:0 auto;max-width:600px;width:100%">
         <table>
          <tbody>
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            <td style="padding:0 0 5px">
             <ul class="css-1dtd48z" style="color:#000;font:20px georgia,serif;text-align:left;padding-left:50px;list-style-type:square;margin-bottom:10px">
              <li style="margin:0 0 10px 0;line-height:27.5px">
               <span style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                The prime minister argued that the way to achieve peace was “through strength.” He said Israel’s military strength ensured that neighbors would want to make peace someday. “
               </span>
               <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline;font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                We won this war,
               </a>
               <span style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                ” he declared of the conflicts with Iran and its proxies — Hamas, Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Houthis in Yemen. The truces in Gaza and Lebanon are fragile and it is not yet clear the conflicts are over.
               </span>
              </li>
              <li style="margin:0 0 10px 0;line-height:27.5px">
               <span style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                Netanyahu, who has long objected to the creation of a Palestinian state, said such a state already existed in Gaza — Hamas has governed the enclave but it is not technically a state — and that Hamas radicalized the population and proved the aspiration of statehood is not possible. He also
               </span>
               <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline;font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                objected to the Palestinian Authority,
               </a>
               <span style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                which administers part of the West Bank, having a role in the governance of Gaza. “I think we’ll get Palestinians who really want a future” to take over the enclave and show peace is possible, Netanyahu said.
               </span>
              </li>
              <li style="margin:0 0 10px 0;line-height:27.5px">
               <span style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                President Trump, a staunch ally of Netanyahu, has called on Israel’s president, Isaac Herzog, to preemptively pardon Netanyahu multiple times in recent months. Last week, Netanyahu formally requested an “end of the trial.” At the Summit, he said he had
               </span>
               <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline;font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                discussed his pardon request with President Trump
               </a>
               <span style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                , but he declined to discuss that private conversation.
               </span>
              </li>
              <li style="margin:0 0 10px 0;line-height:27.5px">
               <span style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                Netanyahu, who is 76, finished the interview by closing the door on any questions about his intent to try to stay in power through next year’s elections and beyond: “When history’s within reach, you don’t step aside,” he said. “
               </span>
               <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline;font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                You step forward, and that’s what I’m doing
               </a>
               <span style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;vertical-align:middle">
                .”
               </span>
              </li>
             </ul>
            </td>
           </tr>
          </tbody>
         </table>
        </div>
        <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:100%">
         <tbody>
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           <td height="10">
           </td>
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           </td>
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           <td height="20">
           </td>
          </tr>
         </tbody>
        </table>
        <h2 class="css-10nzuqq" style="color:#000;font:700 25px/32px arial,sans-serif;margin:0 0 10px">
         <span>
          What Lai Ching-te said at the DealBook Summit
         </span>
        </h2>
        <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:100%">
         <tbody>
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           <td style="text-align:center">
            <img alt="" class="css-xsf469" height="333" src="https://inboxflows.com/_/image/https%253A%252F%252Fstatic01.nyt.com%252Fimages%252F2025%252F12%252F10%252Fmultimedia%252F10DB-LAI-tbwj%252F10DB-LAI-tbwj-jumbo.jpg/?inbox_flows_img_sig=eyJwYXRoIjoiaHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZzdGF0aWMwMS5ueSIsInRpbWUiOjE3NjUzOTY4MzguODY4ODA2OH0:1vTQMY:IlOJtPLs3nmqAhdb3qBe9JUEX6W75ZtC5GrttV-81lM" style="display:inline-block;width:83%;max-width:500px;height:auto;padding-top:10px;padding-bottom:0;line-height:0" width="500"/>
           </td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
           <td style="text-align:center;width:100%;padding-top:3px;padding-bottom:20px;line-height:12px">
            <span class="css-1wuwhda" style="width:83%;max-width:500px;display:inline-block;text-align:right">
             <span style="margin:0;font:11px/11px georgia,serif;color:#888;letter-spacing:.01em;padding-left:0">
              David Dee Delgado/Getty Images For The New York Ti
             </span>
            </span>
           </td>
          </tr>
         </tbody>
        </table>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          Lai Ching-te, the president of Taiwan, is in trade talks with the Trump administration, which has put a 20 percent tariff on the island’s exports and has sought to use its chip expertise as leverage.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          During a prerecorded interview shown at the DealBook Summit last week, Lai said that China’s military aggression toward the island was growing.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          The below highlight from the interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Andrew:
         </span>
         <span>
          When you talk about the relationship between the U.S. and Taiwan, one of the reasons that Taiwan is so valuable, such a strategic asset — and President Trump talks about it this way — is because of semiconductors. And one of the things that he says is that he hopes that the U.S. is going to be manufacturing 40 to 50 percent of all semiconductors in the next couple of years. With your help. Does that make Taiwan more valuable, ultimately, to the U.S.? Or do you worry that it makes Taiwan less valuable to the U.S.?
         </span>
        </p>
        <table width="100%">
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          </tr>
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           <td style="border-top:1px solid #dcdcdc;padding-bottom:15px">
           </td>
          </tr>
         </tbody>
        </table>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Watch:
         </span>
         <span>
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          Taiwan’s Leader Warns China Is Getting More Aggressive
         </a>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Listen:
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          President Lai Ching-te Is Calling for More Military Spending
         </a>
        </p>
        <table width="100%">
         <tbody>
          <tr>
           <td class="css-36ugzx" style="padding-bottom:15px">
           </td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
           <td style="border-top:1px solid #dcdcdc;padding-bottom:15px">
           </td>
          </tr>
         </tbody>
        </table>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Lai:
         </span>
         <span>
          Taiwan’s semiconductor industry plays a crucial role, especially as we enter the future A.I. era. But I want to emphasize, with humility, that Taiwan’s semiconductor sector is a global asset. The industry functions as an ecosystem. The U.S. excels in research and development, design, and has the world’s largest market. Japan provides materials and equipment. The Netherlands makes advanced lithography systems. Taiwan specializes in logic chip manufacturing, and Korea leads in flash memory chips.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          It requires worldwide cooperation to be effective. This is why our government supports TSMC and other Taiwanese semiconductor firms as they invest in the U.S., Japan, Europe or wherever they believe it’s needed.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          This contributes to global progress and prosperity. As a result, we remain supportive as President Trump seeks investments from Taiwanese semiconductor companies and suppliers in the U.S.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          We hope Taiwan can support the reindustrialization of the U.S. President Trump wants the U.S. to become the world center for A.I., and we are willing to assist in this.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Andrew:
         </span>
         <span>
          There’s a big debate in the U.S. right now about whether companies like Nvidia should be allowed to sell their most advanced chips to China. And there has not been a real answer yet here in the U.S. [Editor’s note: Since the Summit, President Trump has granted Nvidia permission to
         </span>
         <a class="css-sdwaa1" style="color:#286ed0;-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline">
          sell some powerful artificial intelligence chips to China
         </a>
         <span>
          .] I’m curious what you think about that. Do you think that the most advanced chips should be allowed to be exported to China?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Lai:
         </span>
         <span>
          As Taiwan’s president, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on U.S. domestic policy, but I can share an experience. Around the year 2000, Taiwan faced a similar debate about whether our advanced chip manufacturing capabilities should move to mainland China.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          There was an extensive and thorough discussion across society and among different political parties. The consensus was that it would be unwise and should not happen. Looking back, that decision was correct. Had Taiwan allowed its most advanced manufacturing to relocate to China, Taiwan would not be what it is today.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Andrew:
         </span>
         <span>
          Your economy is red hot right now, in large part because of the A.I. boom. I wonder whether you’re worried about an A.I. boom being an A.I. bubble. And I’m also curious how you think about the Chinese economy today and how that relates to how President Xi views Taiwan, and when and if it would consider either invading or trying to effectively cut off or control Taiwan.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Lai:
         </span>
         <span>
          There are many different views in the tech and economic communities. Some say A.I. could become a bubble, others say it may not.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Andrew:
         </span>
         <span>
          And what do you think?
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span style="font-weight:700;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#000">
          Lai:
         </span>
         <span>
          I believe the A.I. era will bring greater convenience to people’s lives, stimulate economic development and contribute to global prosperity. That is why we must take steps to prevent A.I. from becoming a bubble.
         </span>
        </p>
        <p style="font:normal 17px/25px georgia,serif;color:#333;margin:0 0 15px">
         <span>
          China’s economy is indeed struggling. We sincerely hope that as China faces economic pressures, President Xi Jinping will focus not on territorial expansion but on improving the well-being of the Chinese people. Taiwan is willing to help and to cooperate in addressing these economic challenges.
         </span>
        </p>
        <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" role="presentation" style="width:100%">
         <tbody>
          <tr>
           <td style="padding-top:15px">
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           <td style="padding:7px 0 20px;border-top:2px solid #000">
            <h2 class="css-hjhb8p" style="letter-spacing:.4px;font:700 17px/25px arial,sans-serif;color:#000;margin:0;padding:0">
             MORE FROM THE DEALBOOK SUMMIT
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